If a cynic like me can be taken in, naive, trusting folks are easy prey. Its not all of it, but its certainly a substantive portion. Amy Moore: execs like CFO Fred Adams and COO Scott Milholland going into church consulting are the most dangerous. We all know that Gateways Crisis Manager Lawrence Swicegood is helming the 2020 Committee, so this is not surprising. self-controlled not quick-tempered Ive read that the sweet spot in church size, that combines small enough to know the flock (and small enough that all the flock can know the leaders) and large enough to be endowed with a diverse array of gifts is around 300. ChurchOne App . No wonder why Harvest is in such a mess with leaders like you. While I dont agree with all PJ says, I will say that I too have concerns whenever free speech is abridged, however well intended the reasons. Its not like a plurality of elders guarantees anything, or multiple pastors is anything special. As both Luke and Peter write, they use all three Greek terms in the same context, regarding the same office, filled by the same men. Scary to think that unfaithful leaders can so easily jump from one pond to another. I know exactly what you mean. CJ Mahaney spread $$$ which brought him years of support from the Calvinista leaders.. Gut tells me hes just another narcissist, and this latest incarnation is another game. A continual cycle without end. 1. im so glad i resisted & refused all the pressure the christian community put on everyone concerning that film. In 2008, the church was listed by Outreach magazine as one of the 100 fastest-growing churches in America. I agree, In 2012, after several decades of developing the worship culture at Harvest, the Vertical Church Band was born. So this notion of a pastor as single leader being completely made up well after the Bible was written, simply not biblical at all, purely cultural tradition, I think youd be safe to say that said book most certainly does not indicate that one assuming an unbiblical, made-up official office does not need to be heeded, but rather corrected, censured or even disciplined and thrown out of the church for their audacity and biblical ignorance. There is no believing without proof. Our '3rd Service' is an online experience drawn from our live Weekend Gatherings. In the Seventies, I got mixed up in an end-of-the-world cult Fellowship(TM) that didnt have any single leader figure only a plurality of (20-to-25-year old) elders. 7,646 were here. fear of the evil, scary worldly world. Clement may be writing as if those offices are an established fact, but for all we know, they could have been set up a few years previously as an organizational attempt and they were used to it. Ken F (aka Tweed): The history of church offices is a bit more complicated. TS00: Nothing is more dangerous than a tyrant who genuinely believes in his own false mission. When God leaves, it always becomes about something elseits amazing. ++++++++++++++++++. It didnt reveal anything new. Yes, we must preserve the right to arm bears. If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. Sadly, many have not served well. Almost that exact thing happened at the neocalvinist church I attended. theres a massive problem with the deference thats given but the level of deference given to pastors is completely unhealthy and all because a book kind of indicates that they need to be heeded. I hope you do for your own sake so you do not end up like the Pharisees that Jesus plainly stated were headed straight to an eternity in hell. What followed, over the course of the remaining time I/we were there at the school and at the church in Elgin, attests to exactly what has been revealed about HBC, almost to a tee, and led to my first-hand interactions with Rick Donald, Fred Adams, and a few select others. This has been going on now for 12 years. And if this instance is questionable, then all posts and claims are questionable and credibility goes out the window all because Dee knows best for everyone and will not allow discussion after making claims with no supporting evidence. I wish it wasnt so. Our students have weekly gatherings with worship, teaching, and group studies designed to propel them forward in faith. +++++++++++++++. (Amy, thanks for the clarification on Amy/Lauren). Not at all. He promised never to leave me, (which for me is the whole idea. Dallas failed to mention that Fred Adams, James MacDonald and Luke MacDonald were listed as Producers for one of his film projects. The present situation has for me the feel of exile and diaspora in the intertestamental period. Although, in a few places in Scripture he paused to advise us that he was speaking about a matter offering his opinion rather than what God was saying. At Harvest Kids, we love teaching Gods Word. Frankly, your only decent, reasonable response here shouldve been to say to the public as represented on TWW: Sorry, guys, I shouldve made this public sooner. My comment as Amy kept not going through so I asked a family member whos previously posted successfully here to try using their account and they posted only half the comment because they thought maybe it was too long. Today, CBS Chicago featuredFormer Harvest Bible Chapel Members Want $72,000 In Donations Refunded, After Pastor James MacDonaldFired. Concerned for the vulnerable animals safety, he left his own gun by its side. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. Bridget: Im, however, convinced that the original disciples didnt completely understand what Jesus intended, nor were they able to carry out His intentions without sin in the mixture. I know we have to hunt to keep down the population of wild creatures, especially in areas where they dont have any natural predators, so they dont destroy the environment and/or starve. New TWW post. Living in what the people of Chicagoland call "the northwest suburbs" theologian Scot McKnight and his daughter, teacher Laura Barringer had a front row seat when things began unraveling at Harvest Bible Chapel and Willow Creek Community Church, and furthermore were acquainted with many of the people who became a part of our daily Twitter and blog feeds about both stories. The other 30 Elders and 12 XLT members will, likewise, move on to other ministry opportunities. Children were crying, looking around with fear on their faces, teachers were trying to physically comfort some by embracing them, and even removed some children. Vincent, TWW has relayed first hand knowledge about JMac from his elders and personal assistant to the church at large, lest he try to maneuver his way into another corner of Christendom. Besides, nobody goes there anymore its too crowded. Yogi Berra. 1/3 https://t.co/2PHkVGmEfJ, © 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022 - The Wartburg Watch. The church needs the wisdom of age coupled with the energy of youth young folks to speed things up a bit, old folks to slow it down when necessary. birdoftheair: Very sobering time for disciples of the living God, our Saviour Lord Jesus. Hes earned his money, PRESBUTEROS, when translated to our English language becomes elder or presbyter. In full disclosure, not even a full prof or anything big, just a lecturerand a snarky middle aged guy who was such a great lawyer I had to get a job teaching to make a living. Straight up, you need to rethink this. but ultimately it means people are brainwashed into being acquiescent, passive, accommodating, maintaining their silence. Its a good letter Dallas but would have been so much more impactful 2 months ago or even 1 month ago. Harvest Bible Chapel began meeting the Rolling Meadows High School building. Airing Mr. and Mrs. MacDonalds dirty laundry or private correspondence in that case on a public forum would be gossipy and downright cruel. Samuel Conner: I wonder whether it might not be better to simply abandon the entire property-owning paradigm and return to the original practice of meeting in public places (for large groups) and in homes (for small groups). I dont think any of these people have a clue about how that kind of trauma weaves its way into a persons life. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop them (Acts 5:38-39). I would ask that you take some time to think about it. We have seen God continue to change lives through the people and ministries of our church. Let the truth flow. Cudos for your honesty. Note, I am using my name.. Amen. https://theelephantsdebt.com/2017/06/19/headed-to-the-big-house-for-the-sake-of-jesus/. Thats too deep to answer. Dallas Jenkins was a former leader at Harvest Bible Chapel. The Chosen is Different. Still plenty of room on the downside, I reckon. Today Harvest Bible Chapel is a family of Christ-adoring worshipers on multiple campuses throughout Chicagoland. If people develop So theyll speak of doin church together, or kingdom life, or some such nonsense. On April 8, 2012, their desire became reality as the North Shore Campus launched its first service at the Winnetka Community House. Mel Gibsons Passion of the Christ is one of the most GRAPHIC and INTENSE and VIOLENT art films ever made. Dee kindly explained my comment had been flagged because of some word in it and I wasnt blocked. The post you refer to is maybe one of two that she didnt allow comments. More Campus News . I presume this is because he has a much bigger platform, but if that is not the reason, I am open to hear. He already gets $500K tax free per year in deferred comp, plus reportedly around $200K tax free in parsonage allowance. The first three paragraphs above is what I was hoping to comment on lol. Hours . Cool bands, espresso coffee, relevant sermons, fun and fellowship, etc, In the words of the Prophets Emerson, Lake, and Palmer: You dont even need a Pastor/Dictator at the peak for things to go sour. The posting of it on this website is unfortunate, as are many of the false rumors in the comments both here and on Twitter from anonymous people. in the end, its what i think, what you think. I just wonder how much of my tithes went to support their gambling problem. said THATS what Jesus did for YOU!. In every church I was part of the pastor put forth a list of men to choose from, and the pastor was appointed from outside the church. He produced the independent feature "Hometown Legend" at the age of 25 and shepherded it to distribution by Warner Brothers. Human nature, I guess. ++++++++++++++++++++. It appears he has been a poser, a bully and a thug for a very long time. My Savior stands between He is already in the process of trying to reboot his digital ministry (WITW)and is romancing wealthy donors in Naples, FL from the $1.2M home in Naples that Harvest rented for him. As their hands touched and their lips met, the ragin river pulled them down. TX and is setting up his own consulting firm so he can go to thousands of churches setting up secret ways for enriching the head pastors. Im amazed to find Im not alone on this. And I know I post too much. At the very least, they need to reveal ALL they know, including leading the charge to open all of the financial books, including known and secret accounts. ex HCA Staff: Culty. I guess its all a matter of perspective. Made a lot of money, enjoyed the fruits of fame that was a product of his professed following of Jesus. As usual, your comments and insight are on the money, Amy Moore. I mean, how could you be labeled Christian without giving Jesus a little bit of credit?! He has not let us down, and even now is exposing these wolves. Every weekend we open the word of God and study the truth He has revealed to us. I AM GOD AND YOU ARE GOD AND EVERYTHING THAT GROKS IS GOD TOGETHER! Theres an AUTHENTICITY in there. The daughter of Matt Slick (big-gun-reformed-apologist) converted to fundamental atheism. After seven years, the growing congregation of 500 raised funds in six weeks to secure a former warehouse at 800 S Rohlwing Road in Rolling Meadows. Who knows? One can attempt to form a very egalitarian group where no one is in charge, but it only works until a dysfunctional person makes a power grab. . We see it mentioned on a few occasions in Scripture where elders were appointed in every city. I will try and reign it in. Never to leave me alone!. Fred Adams former Harvest CFO has a serious gambling addiction. http://churchbuildingministry.org/who-we-are/. be in sin, He intended this confession to go to elders onlyand is angry that it got into the hands of those not in that rarified air. The movie is being produced by Vertical Church Films, a new film-making branch of the Elgin-based megachurch Harvest Bible Chapel, with its estimated $2 million budget underwritten by the. There does seem to be something in Dallass attitude of a disregard for those who donated the hundreds of millions to make the whole Harvest phenomenon work. I doubt that those 4-dozen ex-HBC leaders will list HBC experience on their curriculum vitae or MacDonald as a reference so they might be hard to detect; thus, beware! It was then that the whole sham of our relationship was exposed, and when I rebuffed him he moved on to someone else. A person who thinks they are qualified, is someone who may need to take some time to discern whether thats true. but again, oodles of people also have personal knowledge of the kingdom of God, through knowing God. God reaches out to us, one on one, and he will continue to administer his healing balm to your soul. You have lived in a place too long where you have not had to embrace it. Oh Dallas, for heavens sake, cut it out. Notice how you need to be part of this first hand, and not from a distance like on the world wide web for even unbelievers to see. i agree, Paul has worthy things to say that are beneficial. You could cold feet and released a scaled-back version instead. I dont see how were in opposition. Catholic Gate-Crasher: Lol. I certainly have my doubts that Paul would be rejoicing over the likes of MacDonald, Hybels, Driscoll, and countless others who have taken advantage of the Body of Christ over the last 2,000 years. There has been financial fraud committed by Harvest and its leaders. All this is coming out that millions of dollars potentially has been mishandled, he said. What we have is countless people cutting him some slack . This helped to hit the revenue target and qualify for Executive bonuses.. I think theres a massive problem with the deference thats given to pastors and other religious leaders. and all eternity will be jeopardized. Apparently MacDonald had a major meltdown on the stage, yelling so loudly that his spit could be felt by those sitting in the front row of the auditorium. America needs more Vietnamese restaurants than New Calvinist church plants. Such men do not really serve our Lord Jesus Christ at all but are utterly self-centred. Why would a person, individually, or a community put up with this behavior? And they swam out to each other through the swirling stream they came That incident was only the tip of the iceberg. And of course you. I dont have a huge problem with the idea of multiple leaders who put their necks on the line like the people in the early church serving others, and because theyre typically older and recognized as more kind and stable and servant-like, people are told to consider seriously what they have to say (about the best translation of the word unfortunately translated obey in HEB 13:17. im proud to be human. Choose from among you seven men with good reputations, men of godly character and moral integrity, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we may put in charge of this task The suggestion pleased the whole congregation; and they selected (Acts 6:5-6). where leaders humbly look around for those whom they can help, trying to be the last, not the first, putting their reputations, careers, and lives on the line if necessary 4107 N Steele Blvd. I was in one that lasted three whole weeks. not quarrelsome Recreated vertical version of "Hallelujah" sang by Heather Headley reflecting on the sacrifice of our savior. Now if some pastor or group of elders is abusing people, then gloves off. Echoes of simony as well as James 2:2-4, There are arguably relational dis-economies of scale in social structures. It doesnt even matter if you post your actual name, if someone is full of venom for you, theyll find some reason to spew it. The whole cycle, from start to implosion and disbanding the church, was about five years. How arrogant is that Dallas. The size of the Elgin Campus allowed us to fulfill a dream: A preschool through grade 12 Christian school, to help us implant the truths of Gods Word into the hearts of young people five days a week in addition to the weekend. whether agnostic, atheist, muslim, hindu, buddhist, zoroastrian, wiccan, mormon, straight, lgbtq,. And this being heard is not merely some desire for gossip or vengeance, but a desire to confront evil and protect the rest of the naive flock from being manipulated, abused and otherwise taken advantage of. James mocking his own flock with his outrageous private Cabo party to end all parties, with the $50,000 magician, wont go unanswered. and a Pastor. Good Lord, how does that happen?! Dee has been at it for over ten years. Care. 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